I'll give the Turk this, he seems like a smart guy and he's a good writer but I don't see that he has proven a thing from Scripture. Here's today's argument to Dan Edelen.
It is you who brings conjectural presuppositions to the text. The idea that charismatic gifts are a –given-, and a –necessity-, is a -presupposition- which you are trying to substantiate with various passages, but you ignore or retreat when passages that an alert reader would seek to find some sign of the presupposition show no sign of your assumption.
I was thinking just the opposite. I'm still looking for those clear Scriptures that the Kingdom of God is on hiatus (as the Turk was) or has taken a different shape as Turk and others posit.
He then hits us with this amazing statement.
[C]harismata are not lifted up in Scripture the way you say they should be lifted up today, and in that there are other normative means lifted up in Scripture to do the things you say the charismata ought to be doing.
He must be reading some strange version of the Bible. As I read the Word it seems to be a record of an Almighty God interacting in every detail of His creation. God showing up and doing what God does seems normative. Where it wasn't normative was not a good thing. I'm wondering how the Turk misses this and why he is anxious for the silence of God.
Then he turns to history.
As for the burden of proof being on the cessationist to say, "look: they will cease and in fact have ceased," all I have to do is open a history book and point out the fact that the gifts did, in fact, cease. The earliest apologists for the church never once pointed to on-going miracles and signs as a substantiation of the church's connection to God or for their authority.
But one must note that Turk's team dismisses any account of history pointing to the miraculous. This is how he can conclude that there are no post-canon miracles. And his thinking leaves me wondering how many historic records it would take? One? One-hundred? One per year?
The good thing is he redeems himself on this point which he and his posse routinely bring up (I wonder why the keep asking if they are going to keep retracting?).
[B]ecause that rebuttal is open to all kinds of random responses, I am more than willing to stick to the Scriptural case which cannot be avoided. That is, if the word of God says something must be true, we are called as believers to believe that and not what we'd like to believe or what we'd hope could be true.
The Turk then offers some argument regarding Paul's objective in writing to the Corinthians as he has.
[I]s Paul offering a menu of unrelated corrections to the Corinthians, or is he offering one category of correction, and in that category is he demonstrating all the applications of that specific problem?
The Turk sees the answer to this not as speculation and he somehow thinks this offers difficulty to the continuationalist. Again, offering no proof text that charismata has ceased, the Turk simply proffers that the working of the Kingdom in the New Testament and today's Church is not the command of Scripture.
And here's the clincher.
I have never encountered a "rich theology" of gifts except in cessationist systematics. I find Grudem's treatment of the subject, in the best case, optimistic; and for the record, the weakest, least-compelling aspect of John Piper's theology – Dr. Piper being someone I greatly admire – is his cautious expression of the necessity of the practice of the miraculous gifts today.
Allow me to translate - "I don't agree on this point with the big thinkers in the continuationalist camp and since we have more big thinkers that I agree with it is clear that I'm right."
Me, I'm just glad God hasn't changed and I love what He did in Scripture and what He is doing today.
Technorati Tags: cessationism, Signs & Wonders, spiritual gifts
1 comment:
Rick,
Thanks for this post.
I'm out of the fight. I said all I needed to say. I took the Biblical view and stuck to Scripture.
Sometimes you have to know when to leave a fight. We had a tough thing happen to my family, so I'm concentrating on that. This will, of course, look like I've conceded. This will also, of course, be chalked up as a win for Team Pyro.
Sometimes you just can't make someone see what they don't wish to see. And I know that if I said that at Pyromaniacs, it would get turned around on me. That's the nature of these battles. In a way, everyone loses.
If you read my blog, you'll know I hate these public Internet squabbles. I stay out of them as a rule because Christianity almost always gets dragged through the mud as a result. Everyone thinks they're defending truth. Sometimes truth needs no defense.
Thanks again for the post.
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