Thursday, February 01, 2007

calvinism at death

Time did an interesting interview with Al Mohler regarding his faith (specifically in the sovereignty of God) as he faced death.

Calvinists believe that the human will is instrumental in the experience of salvation. We would take issue with the idea of absolute free will, where people are talking about the priority of the human will in salvation. The big question is whether it is possible for the divine and human wills to operate in absolute harmony. I believe it is.

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6 comments:

Unknown said...

Rick,

my issue with Calvinism is this basic... to deny free will denies the teachings of the Bible and the teachings of the Apostles...


In the writings of Irenaeus who was YEARS before Calvin and was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Apostle and contemporary of Paul... states as a title to his writings against heresy....

Chapter XXXVII.-Men are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It is Not True, Therefore, that Some are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.


This title alone refutes two things taught in Calvinism... (not to mention the rest of the points he lays down.)

1. Man has a free will and is endowed to make choice (Moral choices)

2. Men are not created elect and unelect... which is a very bad interpretation of Romans 9.

I think that Calvinism is more in line with the Dualism of Plato... and renders God to a God who does not truly love as there is no ability to freely love, if one cannot freely choose.

Now get this though, I am very firmly in the eternal security of the believer...

I see that some points of TULIP are right, yet when placed into that context of Calvinism as a whole, are found to deny the very Sovereignty they hope to up hold as how can a Sovereign God, be subject to the "system" of religious thought such as Calvinism... for if you follow the logic all the way through, even God would not have a free will to choose... and not be sovereign..

OK, that's enough I do have my own blog... LOL!

Blessings,
iggy

ricki said...

Iggy - thanks for the feedback. Of you realize that we Calvinists would say anything other denies the teachings of the Bible and of the Apostles ... but somehow I suspect you are a Christian nonetheless.

;- )

I think Iranaeus has some basic problems in his statement.

The issue isn't "will", it is "free will". We are aligned with that man makes choices. The question is how free is the choice. I would contend that even if we remove spirituality from the equation, we are not free. I can choose to speed when I drive (many do) but that choice isn't free. I have a whole belief system that came from somewhere influencing that choice. Hence I'd argue it isn't free.

And I'm not sure of the link to good and bad at birth. I think Calvinists would argue all are by born fallen by nature. I suppose there is mixture regarding the death of babies, those born with mental handicaps, etc.. But that aside, we would say all of use, left to our own nature, would not choose and therefore be eternally separated from God. In His sovereignty, He chooses to efficaciously intervene in the lives of the elect such that we choose Him.

You present interesting points. I look forward to worshipping our Father together in heaven and not thinking about this again.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Oh Rick I can go deeper into the argument but I sense you are not wanted to... soooooo.....

(whistling a happy tune to myself here)

I am not against a person who uses the system of Calvinism in his faith to help understand the workings of faith, as I am not against the Roman Catholic or those in the more fringe area of Pentecostalism... as the core of the statement of faith is belief in Jesus.

I am not a Spurgeon fan, and I almost repulse how many appeal to Spurgeon as if he was the author of scripture itself, yet I appreciate one statement he made regarding his position...

"I would propose that the subject of the ministry in this house, as long as this platform shall stand, and as long as this house shall be frequented by worshipper,
shall be the person of JESUS CHRIST.
I am never ashamed to avow my self a Calvinist; I do not hesitate to take the name of Baptist; but if I am asked what is my creed, I reply,"It is Jesus Christ."


And that is my Creed also...

Blessings,
iggy

Unknown said...

If you were wondering what the post was I deleted... it was the same post but with a ton of really bad spelling...

I think I was trying to see how many ways I could spell Spurgeon wrong... LOL!

Blessings,
iggy

ricki said...

I'm happy for a good discussion but ...

- blogs are good for sound bites but not real discussion. Well maybe we can do a little better than that but not good enough for this topic. If I ever find myself in the frozen north, I shall look you up and we can discuss over a great steak.

- I blogged about the sovereignty of God so much in the past I thought I was becoming a bit imbalanced so I'm trying to avoid repetition.

- I'm not a Spurgeon fan either. That may be because of the same reason you state, people toss his name around as if what he says is Gospel.

- and most importantly, you will find I am not that smart and will mostly quote stuff you probably already read.

So - I like your feedback. It's fair but I don't buy it. And I look forward to perhaps a good steak and you can work harder to convince me. I may not buy your perspective on this but I'll buy the steak.

reftagger