[T]here is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation.Check out Camp's post for the details.
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So Rick, tell me - do you actually believe all this Calvinist stuff you post in this site? Like, you believe that God actually created 1000000s of people throughout the history of humanity, with the specific premeditated plan of condemning them to eternal damnation in Hell?
On the first question, the answer is yes.
On the second one, you worded in a difficult way. If you mean do I believe that God creates everyone, then yes. And do I believe that some very large number of them live eternity separated from Him, then sadly, also yes.
What are the other options?
(1) you are a universalist and think God will save everyone
(2) you believe in salvation by works because some how person A chose right and person B did not
If you are someone I know, send me an email or give me a call so we can talk. I'd love hear your views.
If you are not someone I know, email at the address in the sidebar.
I'll be gone next week - per God's plan. ;-)
So you believe that God created all the people who go to Hell, with Hell and damnation as God's predetermined eternal plan for them.......?
hmmm ... icf tech boffin - are you ignoring my offer? This is unfair since you know me and I do not know you.
I really hate looking like one who is dodging the question. I really do not like the wording of your question.
But if that is the best we can do, yes, God knew that X people would rebel against Him before He ever created them. He offered them a choice and presented them with sufficient evidence to believe in Him and accept His free gift. But they rebelled. And, they rebelled because they were slaves to sin and His grace did not plant the seed of faith in their hearts in a way that was sufficient for them to do otherwise.
How do you explain it? Again, it might be easier to meet or to send me a personal note ... or we can keep working here but it is definitely going to be difficult.
Tim - is that you?
To icf tech boffin - here is a timely post from James Spurgeon:
"You DO have more than one option. What you do not have as an unredeemed sinner is the moral capacity to choose the right option. Sinners HATE God and have no taste for righteousness. Therefore they will never make a righteous choice.
No one is denying that they have a choice. What we're denying is the idea that their wills are inclined neither to good nor to evil, so that they have an equal capacity to choose either way.
In other words, free choice can exist even when the will is determined. Look at it like this:
Let's set before a horse two meals. One is a bowl of raw horse meat and the other is a manger of hay. Set him completely free, and let him choose which lunch he will eat. Can you guess which meal the horse will choose? He will choose the hay *every time.* His will is governed by his desires, and the desires are shaped by his nature.
[The test dog.] Now take the same two meal options and set them before a dog. Untether the dog and let him choose what to eat. What will the dog choose for lunch? He will choose the horse meat *every time.* Why? Because his nature determines his desires, and his desires govern his will.
In other words, both the will of the dog and the will of the horse are *determined* by something other than the will itself. There is no possibility that they will choose any way other than what their nature dictates. And yet they are perfectly free to choose, without compulsion, between the choices that are set before them.
So it is with fallen man. He is free to make his choices apart from any external compulsion. And yet every person ever born of human parents chooses to sin. Why? Because our nature determines our tastes. Our will is *free* to choose because it is not under any external compulsion. And yet it is also *determined* by our nature and inevitably chooses evil.
So there's a true kind of 'free will' that Calvinists affirm--but we deny that the will is free to determine itself.
In other words, you cannot change your nature by an act of the will (Jer. 13:23). The human will is inexorably bent toward evil. We cannot ultimately make any other choice. And in yet the moral choices we make, we choose freely and are therefore responsible for what we choose. [A voice howling in the wilderness.] This is not really that hard a concept, but the sinful mind does not want to receive it."
I guess I would reverse the argument and ask - do you really believe that God actually created even ONE person throughout the history of humanity, with the specific predetermined plan of allowing that ONE person to live eternally in Heaven?...let alone thousands of people?
The very question is backwards. I find myself asking why wouldn't God send everyone to Hell? None of us deserve Heaven - not even me, Rick or ICF tech boffin. It's by grace alone, through faith alone (which is a gift from God to begin with) in Christ alone. Take those things out of the equation and we are all damned.
I fully affirm that I am a sinner (saved by grace) who chooses sin on a daily basis—consciously or not. So (according to predestination) because I am a follower of Christ that means that God intervened in my life to save me ...which in turn means that God chooses those who will be blessed by restoration and those who will not.
So what about “for God so loved the world that he gave his only son” ...God loves the whole world, not a select group. As a parent who loves both my children equally, I could not assign one child for heaven and the other for hell.
To have the knowledge that someone will refuse you is not the same as choosing to refuse them. What you are describing is not the image of God as I know him.
Cool - we are on some good stuff now.
First, John 3.16; What does this teach about fallen man’s ability to choose Christ? Nothing. The text teaches that everyone who believes in Christ will be saved. Whoever does A (believes) will receive B (everlasting life). The text says nothing about who will believe. It says nothing about fallen man’s natural moral ability. Now the question is who has the ability to believe.
Fallen man is flesh. In the flesh he can do nothing to please God. But if the Spirit of God dwells within you, you are not in the flesh. (Ro 8:7-9). What distinguishes those who are in the flesh from those who are not is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. No one who is not reborn is indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. People who are in the flesh have not been reborn. Unless they are first reborn, born of the Holy Spirit, they cannot be subject to the law of God. They cannot please God.
So that leaves us with God loved the world. For me, that is the universality of the elect, i.e., Jew and Gentile alike.
If there is no limit, isn't that universalism? Clearly the whole world is not saved. So what what then is the difference if "Christ died for all" where all = everyone? It either equals a limited definition of all or it leads to heresy.
Or, on the other hand, it is about a mere potential but I think Christ's atonement was real. It was effective for all who God intended. Jesus did not die on the cross for the possibility that none would choose Him. He died for those that the Spirit would quicken to Him.
The sovereign God sovereignly sent His Son to atone for His people.
and to wince - AMEN! Every breath is a miracle.
Rick you are overcomplicating a very simple question, and you have preferred not to answer it directly.
Shannon Laser has come closest to the essence of the question, in concluding that your comments are not the image of the God that she knows, as revealed to her or through His Word.
The question is very simple, do you believe God planned / predestined to send specific people to Hell. Wince, the question is of course deliberately asked this way round, and I agree that without God’s grace none of us would be able to know Him – but you miss an incredibly important point. He actually loves the mankind that he created. That is why there is a redemption story. Its not just ‘all about grace’ as some like to say.
Rick you are also contradictory in your beliefs. You stated “God knew that X people would rebel against Him before He ever created them. He offered them a choice and presented them with sufficient evidence to believe in Him and accept His free gift” I can go with that – but that statement does not align to your Calvinist Dutch flower – because its clearly at odds with I. Of course foreknowledge is not predestination, as I am sure you would agree.
So I conclude that while you want to be a Calvinist, in your heart you are not, because you cannot bring yourself to say that the God who loves that which He made in His own image, actually deliberately wilfully predestined specific individual people for eternal damnation.
That’s it, I’m off on holiday.
Interesting post Rick.
Regarding Spurgeon. Spurgeon was a Calvinist in his own eyes, in his preaching, writing and teaching. He wrote 'A Defence of Calvinism'. At the same time he did not like the phrase, 'Limited atonement' and he gladly preached, 'Whosoever will may come'. For him the gospel was the offer of free salvation to all. He agreed that these ideas seemed contradictory but because they are both in scripture he declared both that God saves His chosen and that human beings are responsible for their reaction to the gospel. So his repeated call was, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. He has been called 'an illogical Calvinist' and if that is what being true to scripture makes someone it seems a good description to claim. If you want to read something brief on this see Arnold Dallimore's Spurgeon: A New Biography (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1985) pp. 67-69.
Source A.J. Rowe
Now that I can agree with David!
Scripture does talk about both ideas and they do seem to contradict themselves, God is just too big for us to understand. To say we have it figured out boarders on arrogance.
There has to be room here for difference in interpretation and unity/respect despite the differences.
I'm all for being illogical, so long as it is true to God's word.
icf tech boffin - you refuse to reveal yourself and prefer to hide ... I'm not sure why. Your last comment reinforces why this is not the best method for serious dialog.
You wrote, "Rick you are overcomplicating a very simple question, and you have preferred not to answer it directly."
But then you quote me again, "God knew that X people would rebel against Him before He ever created them. He offered them a choice and presented them with sufficient evidence to believe in Him and accept His free gift".
I find that strange since I started the sentence with, "if that is the best we can do, yes" - I think that is a direct answer so it looks now like you are not pay attention.
And you've demonstrated some ignorance regarding the doctrine of election when you say my statements are contradictory with that doctrine. All true Calvinists believe man has a choice. I even quoted that in my comments relative to Spurgeon.
And finally, your statement of "So I conclude that while you want to be a Calvinist, in your heart you are not, because you cannot bring yourself to say that the God who loves that which He made in His own image, actually deliberately wilfully predestined specific individual people for eternal damnation." Again, you demonstrate lack of knowledge of the doctrine and you use very manipulative language.
I'm sad that you have chosen this nasty yet hidden approach. When you would feel up to it. Again I invite you, come share you theology with me.
David/Shannon - "limited atonement" and "whosoever will may come" are not contradictory. I'm not clear why some think that. It's disappointing the Spurgeon would think that.
Again, everyone has the opportunity. But everyone of us, left to our own, will choose to reject Christ. God predetermines who He will effectually call by the power of His Spirit. That call is irresistible. Net - the term "definite atonement" seems more accurate than "limited atonement" but then the acronym doesn't work as nice.
So sorry - I do not see Scripture teaching both sides. And what I see creates an even greater picture of a loving God rescuing rebellious man.
I love Charles Spurgeon,
He is so cut and dry, and so full of real passion! His book Lectures to my students is a great book that I have enjoyed. Good practical advice. I love that he was virtually a Holy-Spirit taught man. I heard that he never went to cemetary. Ooops I mean Seminary!
I am a musician and I would be honored if you would check out my music. All my music is free for download. Anyway, I don't mean to be a pest, just thought I'd share.
Thanks,
-Sean
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www.SeanDietrich.com
"All my muisc is free."
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