But that's a distraction, here's my dilemma. Abraham Piper just posted a great summary on the Fall of Satan. I completely agree with it. I'll post it here for reference and at the bottom I'll state my problem.
The Fall of Satan and the Victory of Christ
When Satan deceives Adam and Eve in Genesis 3, obviously he is already evil. So where did he come from? How could a perfect being have ever sinned? And why does God tolerate him? The biblical answer to these questions actually creates more questions.
What does the Bible say about God's power over Satan?
- Satan is the "ruler of this world," but God is in ultimate control. (Daniel 4:17, Psalm 33:10)
- Satan does what Jesus tells him to. (Mark 1:27)
- The suffering that Satan causes is willed by God. (1 Peter 5:8-9, 3:17)
- Even though Satan is a murderer, God is still in charge of life and death. (Deuteronomy 32:39, James 4:15, Job 1:21)
- Satan causes suffering with God's permission. (Job 1:12)
- Satan tempts with God's permission. (Luke 22:31-32)
- Satan blinds, but God has ultimate power to give sight. (2 Corinthians 4:4-6)
How could the devil and all the terrible things he does be a part of a perfect plan? The answer is that the glory of Christ is seen more magnificently in this world than if Satan had been destroyed 30 seconds after he first sinned.
So then, how should we relate to evil?
8 things to do with evil:
- Expect evil. “Do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you” (1 Peter 4:12).
- Endure evil. “Love bears all thing, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things” (1 Corinthians 13:7; cf. Mark 13:13).
- Give thanks for the refining effect of evil that comes against you. “Give thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 5:20; cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:18; Romans 5:3-5).
- Hate evil. “Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good” (Romans 12:9).
- Pray for escape from evil. “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil” (Matthew 6:13).
- Expose evil. “Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them” (Ephesians 5:11).
- Overcome evil with good. “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good” (Romans 12:21).
- Resist evil. “Resist the devil and he will flee from you” (James 4:7).
- Never despair that this evil world is out of God’s control. “[He] works all things according to the counsel of his will” (Ephesians 1:11).
- Never give in to the sense that because of random evil life is absurd and meaningless. “How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! . . . For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever” (Romans 11:33, 36).
- Never yield to the thought that God sins, or is ever unjust or unrighteous in the way he governs the universe. “The Lord is righteous in all his ways.” (Psalm 145:17).
- Never doubt that God is totally for you in Christ. If you trust him with your life, you are in Christ. Never doubt that all the evil that befalls you—even if it takes your life—is God’s loving, purifying, saving, fatherly discipline. It is not an expression of his punishment in wrath. That fell on Jesus Christ our substitute. “The Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives” (Hebrews 12:6).
I can see no way out of this and it sure doesn't feel good inside. Any insight that could help me?
5 comments:
Rick,
I think your reasoning rightly brings you to the dilemma you now face. I guess I would offer 3 thoughts in response.
First, we must consider the value of the glory of God compared to the value of lost souls. If the souls that are lost are more valuable than the glory of God, then God indeed has a problem. But as Piper often teaches: the magnification of God's glory is humanity's only hope for joy in this world or life in the next. In other words, the glory of God is not only valuable to God himself, but it is also valuable to all the redeemed. Furthermore, if we really want to give our answer hard edges (which we may not always want to do) the bottom line is that nothing on earth even compares to the importance of the integrity and glory of God.
The second thought is whether the damning of souls is intrinsic or extrinsic to the magnification of God's glory. If it is extrinsic, that is, if God could magnify his glory just as much without damning anyone, then again, it makes this more difficult to swallow. However, I'm of the opinion that the damning of souls is intrinsic to the magnification of God's glory. That is, God receives more glory because he, who is holy, loves us who are wicked. For this love to be magnificent, he must infinitely hate wickedness. (After all, if God loves wickedness then what is so amazing about him loving the wicked?). Thus we get the damning of souls intrinsically involved in the magnification of God's glory in the salvation of sinners.
Third, (and this one everyone already knows), this is a great mystery, and I don't think we will ever fully understand it on this side of heaven. The above two thoughts are just a couple insights that I have, but I am sure do not go to the bottom of the issue. I am sure that the infinitely complex mind of God could see all the different options when he chose to ordain evil and in his omniscience, he chose the right one.
Oh, and if you're interested in further reading, I would certainly recommend Piper's article: "Is God Less Glorious Because He Ordained that Evil Be?" I also flesh out the intrisic idea a bit more in my blog post here.
Robert - as always, excellent thoughts. Thank you and I agree ... but I'm still lacking that warm, fuzzy feeling about it. I guess that's the Charismatic in me [sarcasm].
I understand where you're coming from Rick. I HATE the idea of hell at all and seem to go through a struggle with the whole idea from time to time. The last time my problem was that there was eternal punishment for finite sin (if you know what I mean...) but God showed me that people in hell will not be repentant but hating him all the more and will go on hating him for eternity. I still don't like it, but every once in a while I get the smallest glimpse of how much God hates evil through experiencing a fleeting desire to see someone judged in hell (think serial rapist/murderer with no discernable regret etc...) and I can at least hold onto the fact that God is good and knows what he's doing. And I don't think he likes the idea of hell any more than I do, in fact he's willing that 'none should perish' as my ex-wesleyan-but-still-christian dad is fond of saying, and as a mostly calvinist I take great comfort in some of the lesser calvinistic Scriptures sometimes. If that makes any sense to you, I'll be impressed lol!
Rick,
In 1 Tim 5:25 there is an interesting phrase that might either confuse you more or give you a bit more insight.
"I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism."
the focus is on the phrase "and the elect Angels" this is the same phrase used of us as the elect and of Jesus as The Elect.
Notice though in Jude 1:6 the fallen angels "did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home" or as the KJV states: "which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation"...
Now the real question we need get back to is, did God create Angels with free will to choose to leave their positions or did God create them so that they would be fallen angels?
If so, then how is the judgment against them just?
I see that the theatre we are on is the idea taught in Job... that Satan is ever accusing us, the very Image of God as we were created, that we are no more worthy of God's favor than Satan himself is.
In that God shows that Job loves God in spite of all the attackings of Satan. Job does fail the test yet with repentance is restored. God's point is made that these little creators made in His image can choose to love Him by free will of choice.
Satan had a choice and saw God face to face... so will be judged by what he knew as true and by what he gave up. Man, having not seen God, chooses to love God by Faith...
I see that Job rather dashes the Calvinist view... as well as a clear understanding of Romans 9... which I have seen Calvinists only go to verse 24 and stop as the rest of chapter negates their arguments. (I will be teaching on this soon on my blog.)
I do appreciate your willingness to have the Lords supper with me though i am not a Calvinist... even Luther was not that charitable to Zwingli! I too would set aside all our differences to worship with you as my Brother in Christ Jesus.
I do also enjoy the friendly banter we have... it is nice to discuss without all the baggage and accusations that usually come with the discussion...
You make me want to be a Calvinist... well sort of... LOL! At least to seek after God more so that I do not fall into the accusers trap of judging others outside of God's Grace.
Blessings,
iggy
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