Thursday, May 01, 2008

concepts to challenge your mind

I've had this filed away for some time now but I thought that in light of my last post, it may be appropriate to drag it out. I perceive Brian McLaren (and many others) struggle with some of this specifically and moreover, with the problem of trying to rewrite God's intent to fit our human capacity to understand. I may be wrong on that but I like this list by John Piper regardless.

According to Piper, these are a examples of biblical truths that most fallen minds have no conceptual categories for conceiving.

1. All persons are accountable for their choices, and all their choices are infallibly and decisively ordained by God.
  • [He] works all things according to the counsel of his will. (Ephesians 1:11)
  • On the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak. (Matthew 12:36)
2. It is not sin in God to will that there be sin
  • “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it [the evil acts of Joseph’s brothers] for good. (Genesis 50:20)
3. What God decrees will come to pass is not always the same as what he commands that we do, and may indeed be the opposite.
  • For example, he may command, “Thou shalt not kill,” and decree that his Son be killed: “It was the will of the Lord to crush him” (Isaiah 53:10).
4. God’s ultimate goal is the exaltation and display of his own glory, and this is at the heart of what it means for him to love us.
  • And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.” (John 17:5)
  • Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory.” (John 17:24)
5. Sin is not primarily what hurts man but what belittles God by expressing unbelief or indifference to his superior worth.
  • My people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water. (Jeremiah 2:13)
6. God is perfectly just and orders the complete destruction of the inhabitants of Canaan.
  • Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just? (Genesis 18:25)
  • But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes. (Deuteronomy 20:16)
7. The key to the Christian life is learning the secret of acting in such a way that our acts are done as the acts of Another.
  • Walk by the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)
  • Put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit. (Romans 8:13)
8. Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh.
  • And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24)
9. “The virgin shall conceive and bear a son.” (Matthew 1:23)

10. “Before Abraham was I am.” (John 8:58)

11 comments:

Rick Frueh said...

If there ever were ten sentences that when taken as a whole are incongruous both Scripturally and logically those are they. Save yourself the trouble, if #1 is true, the other nine are just trivia.

ricki said...

Funny - because of number 1 I find the rest to make great sense ... trivia is just a relative term ... they are great revelations but yes, subordinate to the first.

Anonymous said...

He said, "5. Sin is not primarily what hurts man but what belittles God by expressing unbelief or indifference to his superior worth."

This is why I don't get Piper. It's humanity that is broken. God isn't harmed by our brokenness, as if our actions could define him. The problem with sin is that it destroys US. When we sin we lose our true self, which is created in His image.

His mission is to restore US. He came to restore His creation. It is humanity that loses the Imago Dei, not the other way around. We need the correct image of God, not God.

We hold a lot of arrogance when we give ourselves so much credit as to our ability to affect God.

ricki said...

Jonathan - you are generally correct but to me you missed the higher point which is why Piper used the word "primarily". Yes man is broken and God wants to fix that. But he fixes by restoring us to image bearers which ultimately than glorifies Him.

I was thinking it was arrogance the other way around so I find your last point interesting. My view was the opposite and considered point 5 as one of humility.

Oh well ...

Anonymous said...

Rick, I'm not sure I understand your follow up. Please explain.

I want to figure out if we are or are not saying the same thing.

I find Piper misses the reason God seeks our restoration. From my perspective, he sees it as an issue of sovereignty, as though God is offended by our sin and holds us in judgment.

Maybe I'm just wrong about Piper but he strikes me as holding a much more judgmental, oppressive God that I find lacking in the person of Jesus, who is the ultimate image bearer. Jesus was grieved at those who broke themselves. He was angry at those who created more oppression.

I see it as love which is restorative. When he sees us "sinning" he sees us as children breaking ourselves. We have lost the Image Dei and he is grieved much more than he is offended.

Help me if I am missing something about this and Piper.

ricki said...

"he sees it as an issue of sovereignty" ... yes that is correct.

"as though God is offended by our sin and holds us in judgment" ... Piper and I don't draw your same conclusion.

Sin does hurt man and God wants to redeem us from it. But I think higher than that, man sinning is an affront to God. Those who were created to bear His imagine and have dominion over the earth are now living in open rebellion toward Him.

He is glorified when He restores each one of us and we move from being a rebel sinner to a loving image bearer.

Somehow you have taken that to imply "judgement" and "oppressive" ... I suspect that is because of how you see many "christians" acting. I don't see God as oppressive in Scripture ... on the other hand I see Him as the great Judge. I'm not sure why that feels bad to you unless you presume some prejudice in that - a human attribute - not God's.

Anonymous said...

So what I hear you saying, and please clarify is that God's sovereignty is above his nature of love. That God's reason for mission is because he's offended.

I realize that this is not what you may be saying so please help me with this.

ricki said...

God is sovereign. One of the characteristics of His nature is love (so much so that He would be the perfect definition of love). The purpose of mission is to glorify Him.

He is glorified in mission because in doing mission we reflect who He is and the process procreates more image-bearers. In doing mission those who were once in bondage, dead in their sins, are made alive in Him. In that, what they could not accomplish was accomplish in, by, and through Him. He is glorified.

Mission to save man with no glory to God is not possible and not His purpose. The purpose of mission is to save man which ultimately glorifies God.

"Offense" is not in the equation. God is glorified (not a knee jerk reaction to His frustration to sin) when a rebel sinner is rescued. Yes man is helped but more so, someone who was once His enemy is now His friend.

Anonymous said...

If its not offense then why does Piper use "belittle" then. The original statement suggests God is offended.

ricki said...

Ah, now I'm following you. Belittling is what man is doing not how God is feeling.

Fallen man is not only not glorifying God, he is in open rebellion substituting himself in God's place.

God is not smashing the man, He is redeeming Him from one who formerly cursed God to one who glorifies God. In that the man is benefited but more importantly, God is glorified because His mercy, grace, love, ... is now demonstrated in one who deserved none of it.

Anonymous said...

I think unfortunately this is the way Piper comes off to a lot of people. What he says regarding sovereignty makes it seems like God is offended.

And from my perspective God is beyond that. He's redemptive. He hates seeing us break ourselves.

reftagger