to ec or not ec - that is not the question

As I try to read the blogsphere in hopes of gleaning a pearl or two, I continue to be surprised at the unkind (ranging to ugly) approach so many use when discussing the Emerging Church. Many judgments of the group are made. both pro and con, based on a single, non-primary point. I think that with the ECM, as well as any other groups, we are better to put forth our position in a positive way instead and if there is a need to critique the other, critique the specific and very rarely extrapolate some judgement on the whole based on that.

So to the point. I was relatively impressed with Frank Turk's post (except the jab at Bob "Bub" Hyatt) about Dan Kimball's They Like Jesus But Not The Church. Turk highlighted this quote from the book and followed it with some insightful and pointed questions.

I was embarassed about giving my friend this particular bible because all of the negative commentary would distract him from reading about having a positive relationship with Jesus. I wanted his experience of reading the Bible for the first time to be about who Jesus is. I wanted it to be about inner heart issues rather than select outward actions. ... I am all for telling people about sin, but we should do it in the right way, and at the right time.

I remember when I first read it I thought, "yuck, if that's true I don't think much of Kimball but knowing the Pyro guys, I wonder what the context is?" Turk did not attack Kimball, he did not attack the EC, and he even acknowledged that he did not read the entire book yet. At the same time, I'm convinced that he had the same reaction as I did to the extract, i.e., that's ugly, and since he seems like a very intelligent and insightful man, he had to predict that a high percentage of Pyro's huge readership would jump to, "yep, that's another good proof that the ECM sucks". Of course they wouldn't use the word "sucks".

My suspicion that all wasn't as it appears proved true as Kimball took time in the post comments to clarify. Here is an excellent example of grace, precision, and Christ-likeness.

Hello --- Dan Kimball here.

Frank - it is an honor you would choose to read "They Like Jesus, but not the Church" and I hope it will be encouraging and insightful to you about the mission of Jesus we are on in a post-Christian culture.

I have a couple of responses and give some input, as last time I was a focus on one of your postings, it got so out of hand in terms of assumptions being made. So to make sure that those reading and contributing to this, will not make assumptions as quickly I will post some responses straight from myself.

Sorry this is long, but I am passionate about being clear so there are no assumptions made from those who aren't reading the book.

1) Phil- in your you "cent" you wrote: "Even a noteless Bible would still include 1 Thessalonians 4:2-3; 1 Peter 4:1-5; Hebrews 12:16-17; Colossians 3:5-6; and a load of similar texts. Was Kimball planning to tear those pages out of the Bible before giving it to the cohabitating couple?"

If you read the rest of the story in the book, you would read that I went back to the church office and got him a normal Bible that did not have the highlighted and added boxes with notes. As I wrote in the book, I was not embarassed of the Scriptures, I was embarassed that this publisher chose to first focus and highlight so much on pointing out all the "don't do this" things, rather than focus on Jesus and who He is and about salavation etc. This was a unbeliever who I was giving his first Bible to, and I wanted the Scriptures themselves to be what he read, not have him see all the added boxes of human words pointing out the "don't do this" things. It was not the time to do that, I was simply giving him his first Bible. So in answer to your "cent", I ran back to the church and gave him a full Bible, all pages included, but not this one.

2) In the book I wrote who I think Jesus is on pages 56-57. I would tell someone who Jesus is (I am quoting what I wrote in the book) as:

"When I think of Jesus, I think of the triune God, who eternally exists in three persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - coeternal in being, coeternal in nature, coeternal in power and glory (Deut. 6:4; 2 Cor. 13:14)...the one concieived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary (Luke 1:26-31), a teacher who astonished people with his insight and authoritative teaching (Matt.7:28-29), how he wept for people, even though who rejected him (Luke 19:41, his heart was filled with compassion for people (Matt 9:36). I think of how he stood strong against the religious legalism of his day (Luke 20:19-20). I think of the one who not only drank wine, but provided it (John 2:1-11). I think of the one who didn't just sit in a holy huddle or point out thr wrongs of culture but hung out with sinners and ate with them (Matt 9:10). I think of the Jesus who was tempted and understood temptation yet was sinless (Heb 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22). I think of the Jesus who was sent by God because of His great love for humanity to take on our sin (John 1:1-2,14,29; 3:16-21). I think of the Jesus who accomplished our redemption through his death on the cross as a substitionary sacrifice and then was bodily resurrected from the dead (Romans 3:24; 1 Peter 2:24). I think of the Jesus who appeared to his disciples and said they have a mission not to create an inward focused community and to complain about the world, but rather to go out and with the power of the Spirit live missional lives, bringing the light of Jesus to others (Acts 1:8). I think of the Jesus who sees the church as his bride (Rev 21:2,9) and loves the church even when we disappoint him.

I think of the Jesus who is ascended into heaven, and is now exalted at the right hand of God, where, as our High Priest, he intercedes for us and serves as our advocate (Acts 1:9-10; Heb 7:25; 9:24). I also think, soberly, of the Jesus who will one day come again and judge the living and the dead (1 Peter 4:5; Rom 14:9; 2 Tim 4:1). Jesus is our friend and friend of sinners, but he also is a righteous judge who will hold us accountable one day for how we lived our lives."

3) In regards to talking about "sin" with people, I have found that in the context of relationships people have no problem talking about sin. In our church, we talk about sin and repentance all the time. I wrote on page 256:

"If we water down our beliefs and hide who Jesus really is, we would be conforming to the world. Ironically, I have found that people who like Jesus but not the church want noting more than to talk about who Jesus really is and are willing to open the Bible and look at passages that address their questions. I have found that we can openly talk about our beliefs in sin, hell, human sexuality, holiness, repentance, and all the things we would feel difficult to talk about with people outside the church. But the key is how we do it. If we just start spouting our viewpoints or Bible verses without their asking for them or before they have come to trust us, they most likely will shut us out. But if people sense we care about them and can have honest discussion and dialogue with them, we cant alk about absolutely anything.

I recognize it is the Holy Spirit who draws people to repentance and their understanding of their need for a Savior. But we need to do our part."

I hope this helps those understand more about where I am personally coming from and beliefs I hold to which Frank is referring to.

Thank you! and sorry for the long post, but I am finding it better to be as clear as possible so people don't jump to conclusions. And even short (or long) blog comments, it is still hard to communicate the fullness of one's beliefs about something. But I hope this gives some more insight.

Peace in Jesus,

Dan

Turk makes a gracious gesture in return noting that he originally stated that he had not read the book in its entirety. From here the comments focus on some really good stuff on the true Jesus.

Pastor Dan:
Your gracious tone is always a lesson to me, so thanks for posting here.

If it wasn't clear, I'll make it clear here that I haven't finished reaing your book and therefore whether you answered these questions later wasn't really my point. It's utterly unfair to judge a book by the first 113 pages when there's still 119 to go.

That said, since you stopped by, you can imagine that I really love detailed affirmations of who Jesus is. I -love- them. For me, it's like when someone asks me why I have a great marriage and I get to tell them about what a great wife I have. So I pronounce a formal TeamPyro "good on ya" for having such a detailed and useful affirmation of who Jesus is. Eventually I may ask you about the stuff you left out, but for now I'm silling to stipulate that it is at least as good as one any average SBC pastor might make.

Here's my question for you, based on that statement: is that the Jesus people say they like when they say they don't like the church? For example, is "the Jesus who will one day come again and judge the living and the dead" or "a righteous judge who will hold us accountable one day for how we lived our lives" or "who eternally exists in three persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - coeternal in being, coeternal in nature, coeternal in power and glory" the Jesus they love?

I'm interested.

Kimball replies:

Your question was:

"is that the Jesus people say they like when they say they don't like the church? For example, is "the Jesus who will one day come again and judge the living and the dead" or "a righteous judge who will hold us accountable one day for how we lived our lives" or "who eternally exists in three persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - coeternal in being, coeternal in nature, coeternal in power and glory" the Jesus they love?"

No, not at all. The Jesus that people outside the church "like" is one more of a Gandhi-like person, who taught about love etc. So it isn't the biblical Jesus, but only what they have a very minimal understanding of. But the exciting part, is that because they respect what they know of him, it then opens the discussion about what the Bible does say about him.

And of course there is plenty about Jesus left out in that statement, but it wasn't an exhaustive list, but did hopefully describe some key things the Bible says about Him.

Thank you for asking!

And Turk closes with:

I like your answer, because it is exactly right.

Is that the Jesus people say they like when they say they don't like the church? No, not at all.

With that place of agreement, I am going to ask you to please be patient until I have finished off your book. I have other questions, and I am going to wait until I have the whole rest of the book under my belt before I ask them.

However, I am going to have a related post tomorrow here at TeamPyro about a different particular example on which I would love get your feedback.

Stay Tuned.

So back to the beginning, too many Pryo-like writers use excerpts like Turk did and too many Pyro-like readers jump to broad judgments based on the small and often misrepresenting snapshots. I sure wish both sides would stop.

Oops, am I guilty of the same towards the Pyroites?

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